Fwd: [architecture] Re: [college] Fwd: [speedo] Speedo and ObjectWeb

[Alexandre Lefebvre <alexandre.lefebvre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Eric Samson" <eric.samson@xxxxxxxxxx>
> Date: 2 June 2006 09:54:15 GMT+02:00
> To: "Naci Dai" <naci.dai@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "Alexandre Lefebvre"  
> <alexandre.lefebvre@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Cc: "College Objectweb" <college@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "architecture"  
> <architecture@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>, "executive-Committee" <executive- 
> committee@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> Subject: RE: [architecture] Re: [college] Fwd: [speedo] Speedo and  
> ObjectWeb
>
> Hi all,
>
> As a member of both JDO2 and EJB3 standard committees within the  
> JCP here are my personal thoughts.
>
> During the final ballot for JDO2 everybody but JBoss voted YES,  
> including IBM and Oracle. JBoss didn't dare to vote NO, they simply  
> didn't vote.
>
> I was at JavaONE few weeks ago and I can tell you that the word  
> "persistence" is a not a 4-letters word any longer. JDO has been  
> mentioned in a lot of presentations. Not surprisingly EJB3 is  
> mostly promoted by JBoss and Oracle. Even BEA now has a dual speech  
> around EJB3 and JDO2.
>
> In the short term, I think most ORM JDO compliant products will  
> also have to support EJB3/JPA. That's not a big deal, as EJB3/JPA  
> is clearly under-specified.
> In the middle term, I think we will see a convergence between JDO 
> (3?) and JPA(2?), JPA2 being the ORM subpart of JDO3, which is more  
> global by nature.
>
> NB: JDO has been seen as a standard for object databases. That is  
> mostly due to the FUD spread by some opponents to JDO. Most JDO  
> products are targeting ORM. JDO is a general standard for  
> persistence, not limited to RDBMS like EJB3, but not limited to  
> ODBMS as well. There are JDO implementations for O/XML mapping and  
> other mappings.
>
> Best Regards,
> ....: Eric Samson, Founder & CTO, Xcalia
> Service your Data!
>
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : Naci Dai [mailto:naci.dai@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> Envoyé : jeudi 1 juin 2006 13:02
> À : Alexandre Lefebvre
> Cc : College Objectweb; architecture; executive-Committee
> Objet : [architecture] Re: [college] Fwd: [speedo] Speedo and  
> ObjectWeb
>
> Here is my 2 cents:
>
> In my personal belief, Speedo or Hibernate or TOPLink or other Java  
> O-R
> mapping tools are viable in the long run if they have plans to be
> standard agnostic (i.e. JDO, JPA (or EJB3 in its older form) etc.).
>
> The issue of mapping objects to databases is common, but the standards
> are different.  Hibernate/TOPLink/etc. were not  standards, but now  
> they
> support JPA.  These are different solutions to the same problem ORM  
> but
> they have decided to support a common standard - Java Persistence  
> API (JPA).
>
> JDO has been a favorite among the Object Database community but it  
> seems
> JPA is gaining more momentum.
>
> I believe Speedo will strengthen its position if it supports JPA and
> align with JOnAS/EJB3 container.
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I'm forwarding to the architecture, college and executive-committee
> > lists this message from three people who are Speedo supporters.
> >
> > They were somewhat surprised that their message on the community
> > mailing list was not followed by any reaction.
> >
> > Even though the initial message was not really asking a question, but
> > rather taking position, I feel that they were expecting some kind of
> > reaction from ObjectWeb.
> >
> > Does anyone has something to say/add ?
> > Please react !!
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> >     alex
> > --
> > Alexandre Lefebvre
> > France Telecom, Research & Development, MAPS/AMS
> > 28 chemin du Vieux Chene - B.P. 98
> > 38243 Meylan CEDEX - France
> > phone: +33 4 76 76 45 63 - fax: +33 4 76 76 45 57
> > email: alefebvr@xxxxxxx
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > > From: Roland Hedayat <roland@xxxxxxxxxx>
> > > Date: 29 May 2006 09:51:39 GMT+02:00
> > > To: speedo@xxxxxxxxxxxxx, community@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: [speedo] Speedo and ObjectWeb
> > >
> > > Speedo and ObjectWeb
> > > ==============
> > >
> > > The signers of this letter are representing consultancies,
> > > currently using Speedo in health care applications together with
> > > Jonas as well as standalone. The areas where OW solutions have
> > > been applied by us are both safety and performance critical.
> > >
> > > The end customer for our solutions is primarily the Stockholm
> > > City Council, organizing the public health care of approximately
> > > 1.8 M inhabitants.  Some of these solutions are even considered
> > > for national health care projects in Sweden.
> > >
> > > Three years ago, we were evaluating various open source
> > > middleware solutions for use in a pilot system to be developed by
> > > Stockholm City Council.  For us, we had decided up front to make
> > > use of an Object/Relational mapping solution, and preferably a
> > > standard compliant one.
> > >
> > > Our candidates boiled down to JBoss/Hibernate and JOnAS/(Speedo or
> > > Hibernate).
> > >
> > > For several reasons, we opted for JOnAS/Speedo. One reason of
> > > particular weight was the fact that Speedo at the time was part
> > > of the OW suite (thus giving us a kind of "one stop" offering)
> > > and also compliant with a standard (JDO), while Hibernate was an
> > > independent 3rd party product, not compliant with a standard.
> > >
> > > So, the very existence of a good O/R mapping solution in the OW
> > > suite of solutions was among the important factors in favour of
> > > OW on our check list.
> > >
> > > We chose JOnAS/Speedo, and we have not regretted it.
> > >
> > > We came to be early users of Speedo, but the development team has
> > > been extremely helpful both with technical advice, solving
> > > problems, correcting bugs we found etc. The product is evolving
> > > towards high reliability and performance. For us it is a key
> > > component.
> > >
> > > However, since the early days, things have happened:
> > >
> > > * JDO did not become _the_ one and only standard for Java  
> > > persistence,
> > >   it will coexist with EJB3.
> > >
> > > * Hibernate is now part of the JBoss offering
> > >
> > > * Hibernate is in the process of being standardized according to  
> > > EJB3
> > >
> > > Does this make Speedo a less important or interesting product for
> > > ObjectWeb?
> > >
> > > The reason for asking this question is that we have got the
> > > feeling, based on some indications, that Speedo is not considered
> > > a central, core part of the OW offering:
> > >
> > >   - When a new release of JOnAS is out, it is seldom synchronized
> > >     with the development of Speedo. In many cases one even has to
> > >     build the latest Speedo distro and integrate it manually into
> > >     JOnAS
> > >
> > >   - The Speedo development pace seems to have slowed down lately,
> > >     mabybe because of lack of resources
> > >
> > >   - There is little promotion of the Speedo component on the OW
> > >     site
> > >
> > > Our answer to the above rethorical question is NO, for the
> > > following reasons:
> > >
> > > 1. A good O/R mapping solution is increasingly important to
> > >    bridge the "semantic gap" between a good server side
> > >    architecture, based on OO principles, and the still prevailing
> > >    relational database.
> > >
> > > 2. If one has to go elsewhere to find this solution, then the
> > >    probability is much higher than one will find another solution
> > >    (than the OW-based one) altogether. Why, as a newcomer, choose
> > >    JOnAS and third party JBoss Hibernate rather than "one stop
> > >    shopping" a JBoss/Hibernate solution?
> > >
> > > 3. It is in many situations nice to have an O/R component which
> > >    is not bound to the EJB stuff, that is, can be used stand
> > >    alone where appropriate.
> > >
> > > 4. JDO2 is now a mature standard, and in some respects superior
> > >    to the EJB3 standard for persistence. The JDO2 standard will
> > >    probably continue to live for the foreseeable future, even if
> > >    the long term goal is to merge the two standards into one.
> > >
> > > 5. Speedo is one of the few Java persistence frameworks which will
> > >    support _both_ JDO2 and EJB3.
> > >
> > > 6. Speedo is in itself a showcase for the high quality
> > >    architecture and engineering so often found in OW components:
> > >
> > >    - Highly modularized by means of Fractal, reusing Perseus,
> > >      Medor, Jorm and relying on the ASM tools
> > >
> > >    - High performance
> > >
> > > 7. Maintaining an own O/R solution makes it easier to optimize it
> > >    for usage within JOnAS
> > >
> > > After having used OW solutions to our and our customers
> > > satisfaction, we actively promote ObjectWeb. For us, Speedo is a
> > > central part of this, and we hope that the ObjectWeb Consortium
> > > will continue to support Speedo, and also clearly promote it as a
> > > first order citizen in the suite of solutions. It so deserves.
> > >
> > > Mikael Karlsson
> > > Creado Systems
> > >
> > > Hans Höök
> > > Höök Utveckling AB
> > >
> > > Roland Hedayat
> > > Inherit S AB
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> > ---
>
>
> --
> Naci Dai,
>
> eteration a.s.
> itu teknokent ari-1 25 maslak
> Maslak, Istanbul 34469
>
> +90 (533) 580 2393 (cell)
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> mailto:naci@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

-- !!! NEW E-MAIL ADDRESS !!! --
Alexandre Lefebvre, R&D Group Leader
France Telecom, Research & Development, MAPS/AMS
28 chemin du Vieux Chene - B.P. 98
38243 Meylan CEDEX - France
phone: +33 4 76 76 45 63 - fax: +33 4 76 76 45 57
email: alexandre.lefebvre@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
email: alefebvr@xxxxxxx