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Kenny, give us a break! We first launched Enhydra
Enterprise 18 months ago and we did not then understand the effects of the
license. In fact the ground changed underneath us - the licensing of many Java
APIs changed (and is still changing). So the situation is very different today
than it was 18 months ago.
- Paul.
PS Can we please get back to constructive Enhydra
activities? I've had a couple of responses to my request for help with DODS,
Enhydra and EAF, but I'd like more. Kenny, like to help out?
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 4:53
PM
Subject: RE: Enhydra: J2EE and Enhydra
Enterprise?
Well, surely this was clear to your legal people when you signed the
license. Were you just "hoping" that Sun would change their minds? Why sign it
in the first place and proceed with an open source project knowing it would
fail?
KAC
Kenny A. Chaffin
KAC Website Design - http://www.kacweb.com
Custom/Contract
Programming, Graphics, Design
Poetry Page: http://www.kacweb.com/poems/
"Are you sure about
that?"
Yes, I am. We have spent huge sums on
legal bills on this issue. Again: we *can* work jointly with other
SCSL licensees. We *cannot* share the code with non-licensees.
Thus, Lutris is not violating the agreement. Others may be
violating the agreement, and exposing themselves to potential liability, but
we are not.
Yancy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001
1:39 PM
Subject: Re: Enhydra: J2EE and
Enhydra Enterprise?
Are you sure about that?. Lutris will be
helping Evidian to produce a product that infringe the SCSL, in others
where Lutris will be helping another company to violate the
license. I'm not a lawyer, but its seems to me that Lutris will
be infringing the license too. I do not know much of american law,
but in my country Lutris will be in danger of facing a lawsuit. I will
like to know what Lutris lawyers think about these.
Diego
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001
5:04 PM
Subject: Re: Enhydra: J2EE and
Enhydra Enterprise?
"so Lutris will be infringing the license
too"
This is not the case. The SCSL
license clearly states that code CAN be shared between SCSL
licensees. Both Evidian and Lutris are licensees, thus we can
share code. We will have no problems shipping EAS.
Yancy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001
7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Enhydra: J2EE and
Enhydra Enterprise?
I have another question. Evidian is able
to infringe the SCSL because they are a large company and they are
located in France. These makes any legal action by Sun more difficult.
But Lutris will be using a product by Evidian that infriges the SCSL;
so Lutris will be infringing the license too. How do you plan to deal
with this?.
I was planning to migrate an
application (for one of our clients) to EAS, but to make that
decision, I will need to know what will happen to EAS.
Thanks
Diego
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 10,
2001 9:25 PM
Subject: Re: Enhydra: J2EE and
Enhydra Enterprise?
This is an excellent question.
The continuing interaction between Lutris and other J2EE projects is
potentially a thorny issue. Currently, EAS does make use of
Jonas, an open source project that is covered by SCSL. This is
an interesting case, however. The company behind Jonas is
Evidian (formerly BullSoft). Evidian is a SCSL licensee, so we
can share code with them. In fact, we are contributors to
Jonas. We even have employees in France working on the
code. Note that Evidian is dramatically larger than Lutris and
makes their own decisions on adhering to the SCSL license.
There are some other open source
projects that are part of J2EE and are in Lutris EAS, but they have
all been given special licenses that exempt them from SCSL.
Servlet and JDBC are examples of these.
Yancy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 10,
2001 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: Enhydra: J2EE
and Enhydra Enterprise?
I understand Lutris position; but I
do not understand how will you deal with the fact that some
important components of EAS are open source proyects (Jonas,
Jeremie,Joram); are you going to find a substitute for this
components or are you going to maintain your own version of
these?. How are you going to deal with the bugfixes or enhacements
that Lutris developers might create for these products in the
future?
Diego
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September 10,
2001 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: Enhydra: J2EE
and Enhydra Enterprise?
Lutris' makes money by selling
software products. Lutris Enhydra is the commercial
version of open source Enhydra. They are mostly the same,
but Lutris Enhydra has additional samples, doc, some features,
etc.
Our intent was to do the same with
a full J2EE application server. After a year of
negotiations and some large legal bills, however, we have
determined that we cannot move forward with an open source J2EE
project. The J2EE specification and brand is controlled by
the SCSL license. Signing the SCSL license is important to
Lutris for a number of reasons. It gives us legal right to
create product that adheres to the J2EE
specification. It also gives us access to the test
suite that will allow us to claim compliance. While J2EE
compliance and branding may not be important to some in the open
source community, it is important to commercial customers.
It is these customers that keep Lutris in business and allow us
to continue the support of Enhydra.org.
The SCSL license says many
things. One of them is that code, code modifications, test
results, etc., may not be shared with non-licensees. This
means that once we sign the SCSL license we cannot share
anything under the J2EE definition with the open source
community. This means that we can no longer host
Enterprise. This is not our choice, it is the language of the
license.
Note that
Enhydra, Barracuda, XMLC, Zeus, EnhydraME, and all the other
projects on Enhydra.org are not covered by the SCSL license
and are in no way affected. They will continue forward as
always.
Some may wish to violate the SCSL
license, but we do not. Not only are there issues
surrounding liability, but ethical ones as well. Sun has
spent huge sums creating and promoting Java, J2SE, J2EE, J2ME,
etc. They have every right to determine how these
technologies may be used by others. Simply disagreeing
with them does not give us or anyone else the right to violate
their license agreement.
The open source movement is about
people banding together to build and create. Let's keep
doing so on the projects that are ours: Enhydra, Zeus,
Barracuda, EnhydraME, etc.
Thanks.
Yancy
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, September
10, 2001 10:19 AM
Subject: Re: Enhydra:
J2EE and Enhydra Enterprise?
Quoting Paul Morgan (paul.morgan@xxxxxxxxxx):
>
Bob et al,
>
> You seem
to know a lot about the Sun licensing restrictions but
>
you clearly don't have the full story. No J2EE licensee can
share code
> modifications with non J2EE licensees.
Think about that a little...
> then perhaps you will
understand the core issue facing us. Another
> factor is
that the SCSL license is in two parts, the public part
and
> the commercial extension that is shared only under
NDA. You are not
> considering the commercial
extension.
So, because Lutris is a J2EE licensee and
EAS is going for J2EE certification
and EAS and EE share a
common code base is why Lutris can no longer host
EE?
Or is it even simplier then that, because Lutris is
a J2EE licensee, you can
host EE?
--
Bob Tanner
<tanner@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
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